At what point......

[Bradshaw0012]

...did you first feel that JCP was losing it's momentum?

I say this because I go through and watch the many hours of videos I have, and I flashback to after Starrcade 87, I remember feeling that "something wasn't quite right".

The look of the TV shows changed. Announcers changed. The way the matches and shows were presented changed. Nevermind wrestlers leaving, booking, etc.....I just remember a feeling in the pit of my stomach that I didn't like.

And as fate would have it, the downward spiral began. Just curious if any of you have the same feelings? If so, when?

[bobbyryates]

good to see you back here bradshaw. been awhile since we last spoke...
anyway, i'd say 12/25/84. that far back to me. TA debuted in charlotte that night for the big tv taping. that started the 8 second squash match on a regualr basis. true, the road warriors already did it, but they were not here regular. TA did it, the RW's returned and did it, then the WWF followed suit with more doing it...it just was the begining of the quickie squash instead of the competetive tv bouts we were used to seeing. made it to where if you didn't beat the guy in a handful of seconds, you were not a main event babyface. or an impact making heel.

[ironanderson]

October 1986

Not that JCP still didn't finish 1986 with some damn good wrestling but the unfortunate turn of events surrounding Terry Allen seemed to send JCP into a downward spiral creatively.

I really can't determine what Virgil Runnels was thinking at the time but mistakes were made with booking and talent that were no longer going to be dusted over by rabid crowds and great work between the ropes alone.

I have a belief through being a longtime fan of various products over the years that a booker is only good for two years tops before either a break or permanent change is made. Virgil Runnels had carried the book for about three and a half years by October of 86. With the pencil he was red hot for two years (1985 and 1986) as I see his initial booking in 1984 as a visible transition period for JCP, which is pretty normal by most accounts in regards to the industry. Afterall Dory Funk Jr. had a tremendous run in late 1982 through 1983 so a slight "down period" was inevitable. Not that business goes into the toilet. Things just cool down a bit.

I have a pretty spot on outline of what occured post October 1986 through October 1988.

I've always stated that JCP's best years were what i've coined the "Dirty Dozen: Front of 1975 to the back of 1986". This was pound for pound the best package when you consider all factors in regards to Pro Wrestling imo.

The only other that comes close from what I've seen is Mid South and it's "Magnificant Seven: Front of 1980 to the back of 1986".

Considering those are the two best products imo and 1986 is the "cut off" let's just say that Pro Wrestling was never as good as it once was outside of a few hot days here and their since then.

When you consider the WWF climax at WM3 in March of 1987 the stars seem to line-up against the days gone by at that point.

Mid Atlantic (1975 - 1986)
Mid South (1980 - 1986)
World-Class (December 1982 - December 1985) (Blown potential in 1986)

Memphis cooled off incredibly imo post 1986 also.

Florida was in a blackhole of a long downward spiral to death.

Georgia was dead.

AWA and WWF were always "dead" products imo.

I did discover All Japan in 1989/90. But it was more for the work as opposed to the passion.

WCW did have a bright horizon from February of 1989 through February of 1990. Then again from February of 1992 through February of 1993. We all know how that turned out though.

Considering i've gotten off track a bit I will finish up by saying that 1986 was the last call. WM3 (1987) finished the bottle for good.

For JCP and what was left.

[thegreatbolo]

A couple of occurences I didn't like...

Arn & Tully leave for the WWF.

The big push of Lex Lugar.

[starrcadefan]

At the end of 1987 something seeemd off...The UWF was being faded away and a lot of top stars were leaving or being phased out. Around the Clash of the Champiosn thinsg started to look up and a few guys returned (Dr Death, Nikita) or debuted (Al Perez, Gary Hart, Fantastics)....The summer of 88 was awesome with the first Bash PPV, but towards the fall things were unraveling quickly........You just sensed that something wasn't quite right around August for sure..... ....I still say that if Bill Watts had comea board as part of the UWF sale and the comopanies had stayed apart except for the Bash tour and Starrcade it would have turned out much better.......

[starrcadefan]

At the end of 1987 something seemed off...The UWF was being faded away and a lot of top stars were leaving or being phased out. Around the Clash of the Champions things started to look up and a few key guys returned (Dr Death, Nikita) or debuted (Al Perez, Gary Hart, Fantastics)....The summer of 88 was awesome with the first Bash PPV, but towards the fall things were unraveling quickly........You just sensed that something wasn't quite right around August for sure..... ....I still say that if Bill Watts had come aboard as part of the UWF sale and the companies had stayed apart except for the Bash tour and Starrcade it would have turned out much better....... Flair could have defended the NWA title on their shows and Dr Death could have defended the UWF title to headline their shows..........Later on they could have done Flair/Windham vs Dr Death/Sting or something along those lines to mix the champion together a little bit........

[RowdyRoddy]

All good points. I agree about Magnum TA and The Road Warriors getting 20 second wins on TV tapings. Back in the day, Piper or Brisco would struggle with Keith Larson, Bill Lenz, etc. and wrestle a six or seven minute match.

[JNance]

Personally, the loss of Magnum TA, and the booking/personnel changes had a lot to do with it. The excitement of a "possible UWF / NWA supercard" was just dropped, and the focus on hard nosed in ring action was being replaced by silly gimmicks and storylines. The final straw was the loss of Arn, Tully, Dusty, Windham, Ron Garvin, and the great tag teams (Roadies, Midnight's and RnR). Luger's push was inconsequential, for the most part. Sting & Luger were the new "main attractions" to push against Flair.

The slow death of the Horsemen, and all the other factors combined to drastically impact the business...also Ted Turner didn't have the know how or the people to run a "wrasslin" company.

[sittingstill]

All the way through 84, 85 & 86 you got a product that felt like the promotion was in control, that they were clearly going somewhere - I think you can't discount what happened to Magnum for throwing that off. My point of view has always been that they didn't really have a main event babyface, as anything Dusty had left as a draw was used up in those two Starrcade mains vs Flair. He was just overexposed and out of date by 1986. But no problem as they are grooming TA to be the big main event superstar.

So my point is, I think Dusty was putting all his marbles into one bag, and T.A's accident threw his booking way off. There was no contingency plan (and NO: turning Nikita face isn't a contingency plan). So 1987 was just filled with maintenance booking: you had infinite re-treads of RnR vs Midnights, Horseman vs Superpowers. The MATCHES were great, the heat was off the charts - but it was all the same thing time and time again. Dusty also didn't know how to integrate the UWF guys, so you had this jumbled up card of people who were doing the same things time and time again, almost totally interchangeable (plus the missed opportunity of failing to utilise The Freebirds, Dr Death, Terry Taylor et al at the level they were at when JCP bought the UWF). They were GREAT matches, and that's what saved it, but there seemed little reason for the matches to occur, as they'd all been done week in week out. And then I think Dusty tried to compensate for that repetition by booking endless gimmick matches, and the Dusty finshes to try and keep things fresh.

And then I think the defining moment came when Ron Garvin won the NWA title....

Nobody bought him as champion. Nobody wanted to see him as champion and I think that's the first time that JCP really lost the ability to lead the fans sensibilities along with what they were promoting. So Starrcade '87 was the first pronounced expression of this from the fans - this show just felt different, compare it to Starrcade '86 for example. You could tell there was stuff the fans just weren't buying. In hindsight, Starrcade '87 was the first time JCP seemed like what we'd come to know as WCW, the early years of that company where Flair would be over, Sting would be over, MX would be over etc but ultimately it just came across as a little low rent, whereas - prior to this - big JCP cards came across as ''BIG TIME'' as wrestling had ever been. And that same pattern of retreads and gimmick matches and Dusty at or near the top continued through 1988. The only difference was you had Sting & Luger up top which freshened it up some (I had no real problem with how Luger was used until 1991).

It was that period, starting in mid-87, where the attendence started to fall off in the traditional Mid Atlantic towns, and I think its all related. But its weird, as they really did pick up in 1989, but Sting being injured in Feb 1990 seemed to put them them right back where Dusty left them in '88, and 'WCW' never really recovered until it opened the check book to pay for every star they could get in the Hogan/NWO period....

[jblcenafan]

Flair should have lost to Sting At Clash Of Champions 1 via the judges... chased the title until winning it back at either Bash 88 or Starrcade!

[RowdyRoddy]

I agree. They should have put the belt on Sting in 1988 at Clash