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Post by precious1 on Jul 22, 2006 21:13:17 GMT -5
The spear while he did use his shoulder a lot like a tackle it was still very one side much like the sickle and the sickle was different from a clothesline in that it was bent armed and a clothesline is a straight armed move.
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Post by bobbyryates on Jul 22, 2006 21:34:55 GMT -5
 ?? ok, you explained it. i still don't see it. but thanks for trying. maybe i got a mental block or something. |
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Post by superworker on Jul 22, 2006 22:48:00 GMT -5
about the "atomic drop" or "ass bump" as the "boys" call it...you have to compare that move within the time era of which it was used, NOT by todays moves. For example, I had taken that bump hundreds of times in my career, but one time on TV in Fla, that move was put on me by Mike Rotunda and when my ass hit his knee I felt a tingling sensation and rolled over on the mat and tried to tag in my partner but as I tried to reach up to do so I realized I could not move the entire left side of my body...I was paralized from that move and could not move except for my right side of my body. I tagged my partner in and rolled out of the ring onto the floor. My partner went ahead and did the finish and I was helped back to the dressing room where I remained paralized for 10 to 15 minutes. Slowly the feeling came back to the left side of my body. What happened was I had pinched the siactic (spelling) nerve that runs all the way down to your butt. Of course , by todays "wrestling standards" that move means nothing...I like, bobbyr, long for the days that when the piledriver was used, sometimes the wrestler was " banned from wrestling or suspended. " The workers of today think a thousand high spots make a wrestling match..well NOT by the way I was trained. Each move MEANT something. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you look at some old school wrestling tapes and judge them by what you see on TV today...the atomic drop would seem unimportant to you. What about Magnums belly to belly suplex that he used to beat guys in 10 seconds or less..today it's just another move. If you're at least 50 or older then you should understand what I'm talking about. Heck, just give me old school wrestling reruns on TV and I would be happy with that. If I ever hit the lotto, I'll buy my own station and play those reruns 24/7 and probably get great ratings at that. Sorry for venting....just defending of what I think was the greatest time period of wrestling ever...BTW, the next time your neighbor says wrestling is fake, just bodyslam him and ask him afterwards...was THAT FAKE?...lol
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Post by bobbyryates on Jul 23, 2006 8:12:09 GMT -5
great response there, superworker.
last time i was in the ring (not actual training, just getting a feel for the environment...) i fell backwards on my back to get used the effect of a slam...well, i hadn't tucked my chin in and when i hit the mat..boy, i got an immediate headache. lasted about 3 days.
anyway, what i'm getting at with that is that a real good old style match IN THE RING gave us the realism we needed to make us be entertained and the desire to buy a ticket. the moves, the psychology, the emotion, that's what did it. not the aerial assaults and the acting with long drawn promos. hey, i love a good lucha match or type match as much as the next guy..give me jushin lyger vs naoki sano from '90 ANYDAY. but, even that kind of match has it's place. a rare place, not just about every match on a card like so many do these days on the indy scene. give me real moves i can believe with quality competitors...and i'll be back the next show if life permits.
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Post by flairfan on Jul 23, 2006 8:51:43 GMT -5
you dont have to be 50 to understand that. im 37 and miss the old days really bad. when i was wrestling if their was a veteran name on the show and he was o k with it pull up a chair and listen to stories about the good old days when wrestling was the name on the marquee and thats what was inside the ring. today its not wrestling its going from spot to spot. the matches told the story not a 10min viggenette before the match. i love going to the legends shows and getting to see my heros the people that made me want to be a part of this great sport.mabe we were spoiled i dont know but who knew at the time that this was the best we would ever see. i want those times back.
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Post by superworker on Jul 23, 2006 9:16:35 GMT -5
Amen to that!
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Post by sittingstill on Jul 23, 2006 9:27:22 GMT -5
Superworker - I understand and agree with everything you said. It's all about psychology and if you put the moves in the right context then anything can be plausible. I just particularly have a pet peeve with the atomic drop - I never thought the move looked good or believable. The fact that the move could actually be dangerous, as in your example, makes it even worse....
Today wrestlers can do 900 crazy moves and get no reaction, and that's not the fans fault. Its just that fans have been conditioned to see lots of crazy moves that mean nothing, in matches where the outcomes for the most part mean nothing, so there's no reason to care about it.
So, I wasn't comparing by today's moves. I'm a student of the game, and I understand the context of the time, and I'm only 25.....and there are lots of people around that age that understand and prefer the logic of the old-school....
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Post by cwh47 on Jul 23, 2006 9:27:47 GMT -5
I appreciate your story about the atomic drop superworker.
Mike Clancy was the first wrestler I saw use it in the early
to mid-sixties.Back then all three tv hosts that I saw,Hal Grant,
Big Bill Ward and Charlie Harville would do ringside interviews
with the winner of each match.For example they might say
(to Mike Clancy) "Mike, for all the folks in our audience and at
home who may be joining us for the first time,tell us about the
atomic drop and how it affects your opponent."Mike Clancy
said that when he put the atomic drop on his tired opponent
that the shock to the spinal column would cause his opponent's
legs to be numb for a few seconds preventing them from kicking
out.
This just one example but the announcers and the wrestlers
put a lot in to making the holds believable and I think they
did a good job of it.
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Post by bobbyryates on Jul 23, 2006 9:33:12 GMT -5
realism + believability = happy fans.
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Post by superworker on Jul 23, 2006 10:15:34 GMT -5
I didnt mean to offend anyone by using the age " 50" as a measuring stick. I think " SittingSTill" used the acurate words by saying " student of the game". I do appreciate ANYONE who knows the difference between old school and the crap that is on today. Kayfabe days are THE BEST!
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Post by sittingstill on Jul 23, 2006 10:21:40 GMT -5
Amen to that, Superworker....
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Post by bobbyryates on Jul 23, 2006 13:32:51 GMT -5
i agree.
but you know, i don't mean to take away any merit SOME of today's workers have. there are some that really are good and have the right outlook, i think, that i used to see. but even with that, they don't kayfabe from what i have seen for the most part.
i'm at a crossroads here. i miss the kayfabe days, yet i currently cherish the ability to talk to an old schooler about the good ol' days. not only did i not have the chance years ago, but if i did, workers didn't open up or share much of anything with ya from what i have always heard and experienced. maybe i'm selfish. i have a love for it to where i feel i like getting the insight some guys share these days. but do i want everyone to be so privy? no. maybe us "smarks" but not the casual "fans for a few months". why open up to them because they will likely not know what 'wrestling' is after the next PPV. then they will likely go to the next fad of society.
maybe i am selfish.
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Post by flairfan on Jul 23, 2006 15:59:30 GMT -5
i dont want to come across as a jerk when i say this but if you want to be on the iiside of the buisness then train and get in the buisness. kayfabe days were much better.you had to earn the right to know anything then even after you had earned the right you still may not know. familys of wrestlers were kayfabed to the buisness.if you walk into a locker room today you dont see the same respect as you did in the old days . i remember my 1st show with a name unless they spoke to me i didnt dare speak to them mostly out of fear of marking out and durring kayfabe times as a worker you wouldnt want to do that.today ai dont think its much of a big deal you see it all the time.who knows maybe down the road the mystery of WRESTLING will come back.
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Post by bobbyryates on Jul 23, 2006 16:38:53 GMT -5
nope, you didn't come across as a jerk. you made a good point. matter of fact, i had a conversation a few weeks back with a friend about being an 'outsider'. the concept hurts. like a smack in the face. but, it's truth i guess.
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Post by sittingstill on Jul 23, 2006 18:18:48 GMT -5
Well it was only a natural evolution that the business became exposed. For me personally I would LOVE NOTHING MORE than if the MYSTERY AND FUN of the kayfabe days still existed, that wrestlers sell whatever gimmick/angle/storyline is going on 24/7 - the problem is there were some aspects of wrestling that were a big con, where promoters would abuse the fact that people would buy whatever they were selling, and in western culture, 'the free world', people eventually want to see the truth, and not be worked.
I think we're talking about TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES here. If I was a wrestler or ran a wrestling company, I would want Kayfabe 24/7 from all my guys - I think it just helps create a special feeling - a mystique, if you will - around the wrestlers and what is happening, as well as it helps people 'suspend disbelief' if you don't have a wrestler on a talk show the day before a big event talking about 'storylines' and rooming with his opponent on the road, but instead selling the angle.
But I really don't think that the business being 'exposed' has ANY effect either way on the ability to produce good wrestling. As I said - it was only a natural evolution that the business was exposed, as lots of people were interested in it going into the internet era where the exchange of info makes it hard to hide stuff from people, and it becomes a natural forum for people to discuss their interests....so it was only a matter of time before every nuance was jumped on and scrutinized.
So yeah - you can still do good wrestling - and there are a few people that do (ROH, for example). The real issue is the DEATH OF THE TERRITORIES. In the current day and age, people can be trained to wrestle, they can be talented athletes, but there aren't places they can go to LEARN HOW TO WORK, to get seasoning on how to do interviews, to develop their 'character' as an extension of themselves, and to learn how to press people's buttons. It's all 'a wrestler has a gimmick and a catchphrase' and that's it - no development over time to see what works and what doesn't. If Vince wants you to be a cheerleader, you're just an extra so you go out there and be a cheerleader, and when that doesn't work, he'll take you off TV and find another generic 'athletic talent' to act his next gimmick idea that won't work.
Ahhh, but the WWE killing wrestling is a different story altogether....
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