Starrcade 87 in Chicago didn't kill Greensboro

[ironanderson]

I thought I would spin this out of the SC87 thread to maybe garner some discussion.

In no way am I using this as a vehicle to call out Baltimore Jack, who I have the greatest respect for and appreciate his contributions in regards to JCP history very much.

I just feel that Greensboro is an interesting bag.


Baltimore Jack wrote:

Crockett moving Starrcade out of Greensboro (beginning with the split cards in 1985 and 1986, and culminating in the 1987 move to Chicago) was a HUGE deal to Mid-Atlantic fans, and Greensboro never recovered from it under Crockett promotions. The coliseum was nearly half empty for the huge Clash of Champions Sting/Flair card and Crockett Cup tournament only a few months later in 1988. The effect of that on the Crockett base cannot be under estimated. That doesn't mean it was necessarily the wrong thing to do, as Crockett was trying to show the world he was expanding nationally. But it doesn't change what it did to the original territory, and really was only one part of abandoning the Carolinas and Virginia, just the most noticeable one.



-While I agree that shifting focus out of Greensboro was the wrong thing to do the SC87 move didn't kill JCP in Greensboro.

NWA WRESTLING
Saturday January 02, 1988 Greensboro, NC
Dick Murdoch over Italian Stallion
Lightning Express (Armstrong & Horner) over Gladiators
Sheepherders (Miller & Williams) over Robert Gibson & Ricky Santana
Texas Death Match: Tully Blanchard over Jimmy Garvin
Road Warriors (Animal & Hawk) over Ivan Koloff & Warlord
Dusty Rhodes over by dq Larry Zbyszko
Lex Luger over Arn Anderson
Ric Flair over by dq Michael Hayes

ATT: 12,000+



NWA WRESTLING
Saturday February 27, 1988 Greensboro, NC
Ricky Santana over Black Bart
Jimmy Valiant over John Savage
Lightning Express (Armstrong & Horner) over Sheepherders (Miller & Williams)
Jimmy Garvin over Kevin Sullivan
Ronnie Garvin over Ivan Koloff
Sting over by dq Larry Zbyszko
Barry Windham over by dq Mike Rotundo
Ladder Match: Road Warrior Hawk & Paul Ellering over Powers of Pain (Barbarian & Warlord)
Ole Anderson, Dusty Rhodes, & Lex Luger over Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, & Tully Blanchard

ATT: 10,000+



NWA WRESTLING – CLASH OF THE CHAMPIONS
Sunday March 27, 1988 Greensboro, NC
NWA World Television Championship Amateur Match: © Mike Rotundo over round two Jimmy Garvin
NWA US Tag-Team Championship Match: © Midnight Express (Eaton & Lane) over by dq Fantastics (Fulton & Rogers)
Barbed Wire Match: Road Warriors (Animal & Hawk) & Dusty Rhodes over Powers of Pain (Barbarian & Warlord) & Ivan Koloff
NWA World Tag-Team Championship Match Barry Windham & Lex Luger over © Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard
NWA World Heavyweight Championship Match: © Ric Flair drew Sting

ATT: 5,000+


Booking in general killed Greensboro, mainly not recognizing the numbers Flair and Hayes put up not just in Greensboro but other areas as well. Flair versus Hayes was a natural sell on mic work alone as you know already being a student of the game.

And I may take heat for this but oh well. Sting was not a draw in to the traditional JCP markets. Virgil Runnels rushed Sting after the pop in Chicago for the outside dive in the six-man. Sting did have a future but the angle and programs were classic hotshots and fell along the lines of staying in line with Vince Jr. as opposed to being 180 opposite in regards to product.

It's easy for some to look back now and say "oh man the numbers crapped out in Greensboro for Flair and Sting, how? Sting was facing Flair he was a big player!" He wasn't at that point and would never draw like he was projected to mostly due to an inept office (WCW) and down period in business (1991-1995).

Key JCP markets had been conditioned a certain way from 1973-1983 and even on through the Runnels tenoir. Hell Magnum all around was better then Sting was and he even had the slow and steady wins the race approach. Sting was a booking victim at this point and wasn't the star he would become a decade later, not even close. It was 1988 and no one gave a hoot in the money markets.

It comes down to booking errors in the killing of Greensboro and other markets. When you consider that Flair and Luger killed Flair and Sting at the box office in 1988 it sets the example. Luger was not close to being hotshoted like Sting was. And I think Sting was a better worker when both were at their short peaks head to head.

It really was the story of Stings career. They killed him in 1990. They killed him in 1992. They killed him in 1997.

[bobbyryates]

ok...i've always said they did kill greensboro and STARCADE '87 was the FINAL straw in the decline.
that said, i can see your point very well. you made a great point. but i must ask from this angle... were the many thousands in attendence the usual regular fans or the southern version of the yuppies that got into the big "fad" of the moment? i choose to say it was mainly the new fans.. that meaning the fans for now and then disappear when the newness of the fad goes. i saw many regular people disappear over the months and years in greensboro. those faces never came back and if they did, it wasn't every show like it was before.
just my opinion as i can't say that as a fact.
another thing that killed greensboro was the renovation's in 1992. all those months with no cards at all in greensboro didn't help. when the next one came to greensboro, it was October '94 and it was in the smaller annex building instead of the main building with flair vs sting on top.

[ironanderson]

The one thing we must remember about Greensboro is it's hottest periods in terms of business.

The first hot period for Greensboro:

1976-1978: Throughout this period they averaged around 7,000 -8,000 twice a month. The US title tourney due to the JV accident was a fantastic draw. They were able to pull 11,000 for a Thanksgiving show with a red hot Flair. Not to mention the Flair/Valentine versus Andersons program which hit near the 10,000 mark a few times.

As far as Greensboro in the following years it was hit and miss. The Steamboat/Youngblood versus Slaughter/Kernodle was a hot drawing card as we are well aware of.

Then we have the Starrcade 83 debut and remaining Starrcades in 84, 85, and 86 which were great in terms of attendence and top in terms of coin running from first to last in a yearly order. Toss in some of the Flair verus Rhodes bouts and the big surprise to everyone at the time, Flair versus Windham which seemed to take the office off guard in 1987.

Greensboro is an interesting choice as far as the "choosen" mecca for JCP. Basically the city isn't the market in terms of size that Charlotte was/is.

Charlotte was interesting because you basically had a 10,000 seat arena with papered numbers that would read 11-12,000 at times.

The December 25, 1978 Charlotte show was a legit sellout for the first time since 1963 with the Bolos. The show was headlined by Ric Flair versus Blackjack Mulligan with the semi-main being Ricky Steamboat versus Paul Jones.

I believe Charlotte didn't sell out again until The red hot Runnels period with the pencil in the 1985-86/87 time frame. Of course we had the monster Bash 85 show and of course big ones outside in 1986 and 1987 which drew very well. What's unfortunate is that that stadium could only be run when weather permited. It's really to bad that Charlotte didn't have a 20,000 seat facility because i strongly believe that it would've been the focal point of JCP from the get go. It was a bigger market in terms of advertisment but lacked the facility from all accounts.

As far as the *cade Chicago killed Greensboro theory it's one over the years that im inclined to be on the fence over. Greensboro was spoiled by default over the years imo due to the facility capabilities.

The October 25, 1987 Greensboro show drew 3,000+. That's down right terrible. And this is prior to *cade Chicago. As outlined above we are aware of the recovery with the Flair/Hayes match and the Six-Man tag the following month. Then the crap out at the Clash with a no name (at the time) on top against Flair because he looked Titan.

The thing I find interesting though is the numbers in Baltimore and Philadelphia during the period, damn good. In fact Baltimore was maybe their best market by this point. Also some great numbers out of Richmond and Norfolk. Hell Atlanta did a pretty damn good house for Flair versus Williams. Of course Flair versus Luger was a natural dating back to the Mags in 1986 and the coverage of their matches in Florida. By the time the angle was set and the match occured even with the screwy booking it drew on the rematches very well.

As far as Greensboro it's been brought to my attention that the 1988 July Bash show post Baltimore with Wargames on the top did a great number, which lends cred to my theory in post one in regards to the Clash.

The more and more information that's been made avaliable over the years the more and more im inclined to believe that Greensboro was no better then many other city's around the horn.

[acezappa]

The facts are seemingly there to prove it, but this is my take on it (and I am far from knowledgeable as the rest of ya. Ya'll amaze me with the wealth of knowledge/history you guys and gals have.) I guess from a certain POV I was a "fad fan." I started watching wrestling late 84/early 85 (I can't pinpoint the moment, though.) I started watching because it was getting talked a lot about in school. I tuned in and was hooked. From that moment on I was rabid for it. I watched it whenever it was on TV, and went to as many events as possible in the Greensboro and Charlotte area with my folks. I attended the Starrcade's during this period, and was pretty much the one thing a year I got pumped about (barring a KISS concert of course, lol.) The first year it wasn't in G'boro I was devastated. Now, I don't mean to imply that I represent the masses, but I know a lot of people that felt the same about it. And that marked the beginning of the end for me. My interest dwindled, especially when guys like Sting and Luger started getting their pushes. I liked Sting OK, but he wasn't the draw for me. I've hated Luger since Day 1. By the time it switched completely to WCW and WWF soared into the stratosphere, I barely watched until the point I stopped. We even stopped going to live events and it wasn't until recently that I got back into it. I wish I had watched it back in the day, but I guess I was just too young, I dunno (and I wish I wouldn't have strayed, since I did miss some killer stuff.) But that's one fans perspective on it. Maybe it was my youth, but I really felt betrayed, and it turned me away. Silly in retrospect, I know, lol.