NWA champs on the MA Gateway

[bobbyryates]

with this link here, NWA champs are recognized as being such during the '73-'86 MACW time period, whether they appeared in MACW with the belt or not.

www.midatlanticgateway.com/Almanac/nwa_title/nwatitle_antiquephotoalbum.htm

given the explanation of the NWA title at the bottom of the page, i see questions not answered... are you saying that the Gateway does not recognize Jack Veneno, Carlos Colon, and Viktor Jovica as NWA World Champions?

[Baltimore Jack]

That is correct.

[Baltimore Jack]

For what it's worth, we also aren't recognizing the Race/Flair switches in New Zealand and Singapore in March of 1984. The NWA didn't recognize them at the time, either. A published title history from the NWA itself in 1985 does not list the Veneno, Colon, or Jovica changes or the Race/Flair 3/84 changes.

The official NWA website recognizes the Colon and Veneno changes with asterisks, and recognizes outright the Race/Flair switches in 3/84. The Jovica change is not mentioned there at all.

The NWA title and its history that we recognize on the Gateway is the NWA title and its history recognized buy the NWA organization at that time. The legacy and heritage of the title are not served well, in my opinion, by history revisionists in the modern day NWA and elsewhere who arbitrarily now recognize these changes.

PS - I've updated the page you link to above with the NWA title history during the Mid-Atlantic years, as recognized by the NWA at that time.

[bobbyryates]

thanks for the explanation. that's what i was guessing.
guess i am in the minority here, i feel they should be recognized, but your criteria is understood completely.

[RowdyRoddy]

It is interesting to note that when Sam M retired on January 1, 1982 that the NWA title had these quick changes (Colon, Jovica, Race, Veneno) in 1983/1984.

[Baltimore Jack]

There is no doubt that the NWA began unraveling after Muchnick's retirement. The lack of leadership, combined with Vince Jr.'s direction beginning in 1983 helped lead to the NWA's collapse only a few years later.

I had not really thought about all those changes coming relatively soon after Muchnick's retirement. You are probably right.

Of course, there were several other "weekend champions" (an old Tom Burke phrase) in the late 70s and early 80s (Baba's three reigns, Rhodes' first win, Rich), but most of those probably had board approval (or at least Muchnick's approval) just before they took place, or he recognized them shortly after.

[kyle]

I personally don't think these titles changes need to be recognized, just a footnote if anything. How many times did the champion loses the title in the ring to be given the belt back moments later in the ring or in the back. Dusty would probably have held the NWA title more times than anyone if these counted. At least with the Flair/Race switch there was a return match and the belt went back.

[Baltimore Jack]

I've always been torn about the New Zealand/Singapore switch with Race. It certainly is the most legitimate of these being discussed. Both Race and Flair recognize this exchange of the title. There is evidence that the NWA was notified before the switch took place.

I guess I keep going back to the fact that the NWA went out of their way to recognize the shorts-term switches with Baba, Rhodes, and Rich, both in their published title histories and the histories reported in the news stand magazines. Many of the territories (although not all) reported these changes as well.

The fact that nothing was reported about this change at the time (either by the NWA or in the American wrestling press) has always made me look at it as a footnote.

[RowdyRoddy]

Race and Flair title change from 1984 was not reported until about 1993. Why???

[Baltimore Jack]

Who knows? Do you mean reported by the press or reported by the NWA? I'm pretty sure the 1984 Race/Flair switch was reported by the Observer later in the 80s, but I can't tell you exactly win, and perhaps my memory is bad on that.

Again, I go back to the fact that once the territorial NWA died and the NWA resurrected itself with new people in charge with a different set of interests and priorities (not to mention in an entirely different environment), they became history revisionists, cherry picking certain incidents and events to recognize as title changes. The Race/Flair changes in New Zealand and Singapore certainly seem to be fitting of inclusion, as they are very similar to the Baba/Rhodes/Rich changes in the late 70s and early 80s. But the fact is they weren't recognized by the NWA at the time.

If wrestling matches were shoots, real competitions, it would make since to recognize many of these changes discussed above (and many more on top of that, most famously the Starrcade 85 switch). But matches are worked and finishes pre-determined, so it makes sense to me to go with the story told at the time.

[thegreatbolo]

Unfortunately, the NWA never recognized the title change the night in Greenville, S.C. when NoodlePoodle defeated Dory, Jr. for the belt.

[noodlepoodle]

Hey, Bolo. The fans were practically in a coma watching his match that night, so I had to do something! But Marti made me give the belt back to Junior! LOL

[thegreatbolo]

I've certainly heard of the "Dusty" finish, but not the "Marti" finish.

[bobbyryates]

thegreatbolo said:

I've certainly heard of the "Dusty" finish, but not the "Marti" finish.

the 'marti finish' happened at the last fanfest, remember...it lead to the 'never to return of dory to a greg price fanfest non-tour' that is to happen from now on.

[danpoutsma]

It is explained in Ric Flair's book that the switches between he and Race in March 1984 were unauthorized by the NWA and was simply a case of Race and promoter Steve Rickard going into business for themselves. They wanted to draw the best they could in Singapore and going over there with a new champion was a good way to do it. They also figured that the NWA was falling apart and there probably wasn't a whole lot they were going to do if they found out anyway. Apparently, Paul Boesch was in Wellington and phoned the NWA board when they did the switch, but by the time they could get to any of them the belt was already back on Flair and everybody just chose to ignore it.

The first time I think the switches were publicly acknowledged (aside from places like the Observer or the internet, which was still in it's infancy stages at the time) was in the WCW arena programs and/or publications. When Flair returned to WCW in 1993, he was called a 9 time world champion and they included his two WWF title reigns in that. However, later on when they began counting the # of titles he had won in print, they replaced them with the March '84 swap with Race and the March '91 swap in Japan done Dusty Finish style with Tatsumi Fujinami where even though Flair retained the WCW title by DQ, the decision stood in Japan where Fujinami was billed as the NWA champion for a couple of months (and I also believe in the latter instance, the NWA went on record shortly after it happend by stating that it was an official title change). I also seem to recall certain WCW announcers like Jesse Ventura and Gordon Solie referring to Flair as a 10 time NWA World heavyweight champion after he beat Barry Windham for the title.

Also, according to former "modern day" NWA president Howard Brody, the reason they decided to begin recognizng the March '84 switches was because they happend and most people know they happend, so why try to act like they didn't?